Thursday, January 7, 2010
"Use All Necessary Force. The People of Los Angeles Demand It."
So says The Chief of Police to his troops before they go out searching for the "four Negroes" who did the Nite Owl massacre. And indeed all force necessary is used. They are beaten, they are manipulated, they are killed. And they are innocent of the massacre. They aren't innocent men: they kidnap, rape, and hold prisoner a young woman. One of them likes to kill dogs. But they are innocent of the crime they are accused of. So what is your reaction to what happens to them? Not only to them being killed, but also being tortured? They are bad men: yet do they deserve what happens to them? Write a couple hundred words. Feel free to agree or disagree with what others say, and/or to use another post as a jumping off place for your post.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
For me it is hard to say. It was a disastrous incident that seems like it did not need to happen. But the cops did not know that they were innocent, all the evidence said guilty. But the men were guilty of the crime committed, however they were guilty of a truly horrible crime all of its own. They did deserve to be punished, but not in the way they were. But before the cops could figure that out the men escaped, if this had not had happened things might have ended up differently. They ended up dying because one cop was nervous and maybe a little to trigger happy. In the end I would say no. They deserved to go to court and be tried for the crimes they committed, and I always feel that death is a little extreme. They, in my opinion, deserve a long prison sentence, except for maybe the man who wet himself. He did not seem to have wanted to commit the crime, but instead forced into it by the other men, and I believe that intent should play into someone’s conviction. He also seemed honestly guilty about it, and confessed immediately through his veil of tears. To some up I would say they did not deserve their fate, but they did deserve to be punished.
ReplyDeleteI agree with a lot with Christian on the horrible incident. Yes, the men kidnapped and raped a girl, but they didn't kill anyone. I think no one deserves the punishment of death, especially since they didn't commit the crime they were killed over. The weird thing is I think what the police officers constant use of violence to get what they want is unfair and I am pretty sure it's illegal (Unless it is self defense). When White entered the questioning room and unnecessarily beat up the man to get information out of him faster is unjust. But then the two guys lost a lot of my understanding when they fled from the police station. Really in this entire movie their is no clear good guy and bad guy. Everyone thinks they are right in their mind. That is why I found it funny that they showed the movie playing in the LA theater was The Bad and The Beautiful. So far this movie has a whole lot of bad, but it is lacking in the beautiful department.
ReplyDeleteFor me I think both incidents were horrible beyond belief, however no matter what they did I don't think that the torture, lying or in the end killing the boys were justified. I do believe that the lying was more justified than the torture and killing but I think the police could have gotten the confession without it. I don't think any man no matter what horrendous crime they commit should be tortured to get answers. I feel that is extremely wrong, and being in Law enforcement they have the power in interrogation type situations. When they torture to get answers I feel they start to abuse their powers, and become lazy in that, they find it to hard to get the answers out of the suspect. So I extremely disagree with the torturing. I think that the boys being killed was totally out of line. However in the situation with the men going to find the suspects who escaped was necessary, I think the police could have handled it better, and nobody would have gotten killed. I know the boys committed a horrible crime, raping and detaining that girl, but I do not think they deserved to die.
ReplyDeleteI think that the boys being tortured was unfair and unjust because the only reason the officers did that was to get information out of them faster. I don’t think that Law Enforcement should have the power and right to beat the boys for any reason except self-defense. However, I feel that the officer who killed them in the end did so out of self-defense because the boys were shooting at him and had already killed the other officer. Also, at the time, the officers believed that the boys were guilty because all the evidence had proven they were guilty. I don’t feel that the boys deserved to die because they didn’t actually commit the crime and weren’t given fair chances but if the officer hadn’t killed him, he might have died. I think the officer has the right to protect himself if someone opens fire on him. If the police had handled the situation better, I think, then no one would have been killed but instead the two officers with out any back up, even though the officers knew there were going to be more than three boys, barged right through the door.
ReplyDeleteI thought that this movie definitely shows the intimidation and force we believe police officers to have. I do think that the harsh interrogation was probably the only method that the cop had under his belt to help him figure out if the guy was innocent or not. Yes, these guys were terrible and immoral people, I do disagree with accusing them of a crime they did not commit. The similarity with a lot of these cop show is that they always wrongly accuse the person or lie about something in order to get a confession. I am not sure if that is exactly what goes on in reality with the police department…Who knows, they could be doing the same thing. I believe that the guys involved in the raping and kidnapping did deserve some sort of punishment. I am not sure if you would get the death sentence for raping and kidnapping someone but I am sure it would be probably close in some sense. Instead of killing them for a crime they did not commit, I believe the cops could have took them to court and hopefully gotten them life in jail or the death sentence, whichever they would be sentenced.
ReplyDeleteI agree with everyone, that these men did not deserve to be tortured or killed. Yes, they did deserve a punishment for raping and causing harm that women but not for the night owl massacre. The policemen abused their power. They could have handled this in a different way. The police could have investigated and gathered more information instead of just arresting people that were assumed to be at the crime scene. I agree with who I think is Ema (NCISfan), where torturing should never be the answer to interrogation no matter how terrible the crime is. Those men committed a crime and should have had consequences but not at the level of being killed. This situation was shocking and also eye opening because this kind of scenario actually does happen in real life. To see this on film painted a picture for me, because when I hear that these things happen on the news, I don’t pay much attention. The way that the law can abuse its power and get away with it, is frightening. It is unethical and should be stopped. The scene we saw today was a good portrayal of what does happen in real life. A lot of people have been accused, tortured, incarcerated, and sometimes killed for crimes they did not commit.
ReplyDeleteI don’t believe they deserved what they got. Yes, they were guilty for other crimes they committed, but I don’t believe they should have been beaten, tortured, or killed. The police seem to enjoy using their power just because they can. They want power and they gain the power but torturing and beating. It seems that all the police want is to solve cases so they can make themselves look good. The police see what ever they want, and if that means seeing an innocent man as a guilty man they will do it for the betterment of themselves. Because the police do this I think the line between good and bad is crossed, but we as people want to believe the police are in the right and they know exactly what they are doing. I agree with Caroline that the police officers did shoot the boys in self-defense because a gun was drawn on the police officers. To look at this in another way, if the police didn’t want to believe the men were guilty for the betterment of themselves they might not have busted in on the men and no one would have died.
ReplyDeleteLike a few others have said, I do not think the suspects deserved to die. I don’t deny the fact that they are bad guys and that they broke the law by kidnapping and raping the young woman, and that they deserve to be punished, but they were punished for the wrong crime. I do not agree with torture and violence as a method of forcing information out of people. Don’t people have the right to remain silent? When there’s a gun to your head there is not much of a choice to be made. Manipulation is slightly different in my opinion. Although I do not think it’s the ‘right’ way of getting information, it’s more of a word game as opposed to a ‘game’ of life and death, and proved to be effective. In this particular situation, all the clues pointed to the men/boys they had in custody, so I understand the extreme precaution when the Lieutenant went searching for them after they had escaped. At that moment, they all thought that there were three vicious murderers on the loose. As Caroline said before, I think that self-defense is a valid reason for violence, and when he was being shot at and his partner had been killed, the Lieutenant needed to use his gun to stay alive. Why the Lieutenant was shooting was because of self-defense, but White beating up one of the suspects had nothing to do with self-defense. That was pure power and violence, torture that I think is unacceptable in the law. One thing that stuck out to me was how there were so many actions that went against the law in the police department, and there was little to nothing being done about it. Like we talked about yesterday, the question of giving someone a fair chance comes into play. I don’t consider holding a gun in someone’s mouth a fair chance.
ReplyDeleteI also think those four men's punishment was harsh, and they didn't deserve it. They certainly weren't innocent, but they didn't have a fair chance, and they weren't treated right. However, it's true that innocent people are convicted and punished all the time. Because of faults and failures in legal system, some people will slip through the cracks.
ReplyDeleteI think what's more important is the message that the police force sends by looking for the easiest explanation. What we saw here is that the LAPD wanted quick retribution, and what they got was a rushed, coerced, and manipulated solution. If all these cases surrounding the Nite Owl weren't connected, these four men's deaths would never have been questioned or re-examined. In reality, we have no idea how often people are categorized and dealt with too quickly, and unfairly. The message from this is that there is a very fine balance between careful investigation, and swift justice.
I agree with what everyone has said, the four black men did not deserve to be killed and they were not treated fairly. The torture the police used to get confessions from the men was cruel. Although cruel torture was not only inflicted on black men in this movie, it was used throughout. The question of whether killing the men was deliberate is up in the air. Was it an act of self-defense or purposeful? From what I saw it looked like an act of self-defense. Finally, I do believe the police had evidence that the black men committed the crime and therefore the deaths could be overlooked and if the case had not been re-examined the police might not have realized they were innocent. This is a terrible flaw of the law enforcement, the fact that innocent people are found to be guilty, but at the same time the amount of cases seen by law enforcement can only lead to mistakes. The fact of the matter is that everyone is human and we all make mistakes. Overall, I think that the torture was cruel and the men did not deserve death, but the police did have enough evidence to support their belief that the black men committed the Nite Owl Massacre.
ReplyDeleteI don’t think those three people deserved what happened to them. True, they did commit horrible crimes that required punishment, but it is not the policemen’s job or right to decide what that punishment might be. A policeman’s job entails finding the guilty people who do wrong, commit crimes, and to sort them out from innocent people. So basically their occupation makes them experts of what is wrong and what is right. Civilians are not trained to know what is legally right or wrong, though they should know through common sense what is morally just or unjust. In the shows that we have seen when both the officer and civilian do the ‘wrong’ thing, I usually side with the civilian; not because what he/she did was less wrong, or because they didn’t know what they were doing, but because an officer is paid, hired, and respected based upon the fact that they try their hardest to do good by the way of the people. So, when an officer knows what he is doing is wrong (either legally or morally) it means that he/she is violating everything their job represents, symbolizes, and stands for, to benefit his or herself. It also makes that feeling of safety and protection cops are supposed to bring to people damaged. For example, when Bud finds the man that was keeping the woman who was raped, he shoots him, due to his own personal issues, and beliefs. This was not legal or ethical, and though the man who was killed committed a terrible crime, he ends up paying for it with his life. Bud, on the other hand, is looked upon as the hero. Cops see and recognize the boundaries of the legal system. They understand the rules. But, unlike other people, they have the ability to ignore those rules and be fine. It was very unlucky what happened with the three supposedly guilty men, and I agree that if the officer hadn’t defended himself he would be dead. But, conversely, if they hadn’t interrogated them like that and had made it clear what they were talking about, none of this would have happened. And the sad thing is, the mistaken police officers end up in the paper, being glorified, while three young men end up dead for a crime they didn’t commit.
ReplyDeleteSome of the police officers knew, the entire time, that these men were not guilty of the crime they were accused of. Yet, they proceeded to capture, torture, frame, and kill the three men. To me, that is wrong, regardless of the other crime they committed. The police officers took advantage of their race and class, and abused their power as policemen. Shooting in defense is one thing, but killing to make their job easier is another.
ReplyDeleteThe three men were causualities of a crime, and in a way, the policemen were just as bad as they were. I agree that the men should have been punished, and severely for the crime they commmitted, but they should have been treated just like anyone else, not manipulated. Instead of just the six lives taken at the Night Owl, these three men were killed as well, in just as unfair and horrible a way.
I agree with just about everyone in saying that the way the four black men were punished was not just. Although these men were not good men, I don't believe they deserved to die in the manner that they did, because by no means were the actions these men committed were acceptable and yet them getting shot by the detectives was highly unnecessary. They were basically killed for something they did not do. Although, as Christian pointed out, that neither cop knew for certain if these men actually were guilty of the Nite Owl massacre, and they were presumably guilty, but Exley did know that something wasn't right about shooting them. The men DID deserved to be punished for the raping and imprisonment of that girl, but not in the way they were.
ReplyDeleteI think that it is impossible to tell whether someone “deserves” something. We don’t know these men. For all we know, two of them were forced into it by the third. Even if they did very bad things, we have no idea of the reason behind it. Also, it was immoral for the policemen to torture these men anyway. Aren’t suspects supposed to be innocent until proven guilty? It’s true that signs pointed towards their involvement, but there was by no means enough evidence to justify the police force torturing and killing them. I don’t think that we can assume that these men deserved to die. The dog-killing man seemed pretty bad, and I’m sure he sort of had it coming, but the guy who was crying was talking about how he wanted the girl to live. I don’t think that we can make any assumption about these people that we hardly know anything about. I think that even if they deserved to be shot, they also just as much deserved to explain themselves. It wasn’t right that they were killed without getting to explain their stories, and that the policemen got to tell the story, then, however they wanted. It’s like one team running around the field and scoring a home run after the game is over and the other team has left.
ReplyDeleteIn the officer's eyes, the court system doesn't work, and it is their job to make sure that criminals get what they deserve. The court system may be slow and inefficient, but there is a reason for it. If America's courts worked like the policemen thought it should, innocent people would be killed every day. If you ask me, the suspects deaths are almost as tragic as the Nite Owl Massacre. There is a reason that we have the right to a fair trial in America, and it is to stop things like this from happening. Without the court system, cops are no better that the killers that they are trying to stop.
ReplyDeleteI agree with everyone that although these men were criminals, they did not deserve to be tortured and killed. The process by which the police manipulated the men was totally out of line. Torturing them during the interrogation process was an abuse of power. Instead of talking it all out, they forced information out of the men in a totally inappropriate manner. Also, the whole killing situation could have been prevented had the police done a better job of making sure the criminals didn’t escape. If the men had never escaped, the police never would have had to go search for them. And if a search had not been necessary, no shooting would have occurred, and no one would have ended up dead. Overall, I believe this whole situation could have been handled more appropriately. I do think that the men should have been punished in some way because they did rape a girl, but the fact that they were framed and manipulated due to their race and class is absolutely awful. I believe that the men should have had to go to court and serve their sentence, but I don’t believe that they should have been killed for a crime they did not commit.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion no one deserves to die no matter what crime they commit. Though they are criminals and break the law that still does not justify for killing them. It seemed to me that the LAPD went right to the assumption that the four kids committed the Nite Owl crime and didnt open to any more opinions they seemed set on the assumption that these kids were the killers. When one cop tried to bring up that maybe these kids did not commit the crime they were shot down and ignored. Also the treatment they gave them in the holding cells was just plain wrong. They again failed to give these kids a fair chance instead going through the due process of law. I thought all of the things the cops did to these kids was wrong and not justified.
ReplyDeleteI feel that the mean treated unfair. Regardless of the fact that the men ere bad they did not commit the night owl crime. The men do not deserve to be harassed for the crime. If they are criminals then they should get in trouble for what they did but they should not have a murder pinned on them just because they have a record. Murder and killing dogs are very different crimes and cannot be compared. The men do not deserve the kind of torture that the police force on them. You are innocent until proven guilty and these men are not guilty so they should not be treated as though they are guilty.
ReplyDeleteThis may seem a little bit off topic, but I’m simply using all of the previous blog posts as a jumping-off point (instead of, as John says, just one person’s post). I think that at this point, we’ve made it fairly clear that the three men did not deserve to die for the crimes they committed. We’ve also established, for the most part, that they were absolutely guilty and that they did deserve to be somehow punished. I’ve seen the movie before, so I know the motive behind Captain Smith’s statement about using all necessary force -- he’s in it for personal gain. However, similar incidents (one might call them incidents of “police brutality”) weren’t as rare as they are now. The Los Angeles Police Department’s public persona seems dedicated to preventing this type of police brutality, but they’re really just covering it up more effectively. My question is: how much is this based off reality? How many police departments swept their old-school tactics under the rug, away from the public’s eye, while promising reform? It’s scary to think about, and I don’t know that anyone will ever completely discover the truth. However, the mass movement to reform the police departments led to the modern police departments that protect us now. I know it’s unlikely, but how much of those methods are still being used at all today?
ReplyDelete