Rick had a whole bunch of questions ready for our discussion of L.A. Confidential--but this time, taking a page out of his book, I said let's move onto Dirty Harry. The questions, though, are excellent ones, and are a great bridge between this movie and Dirty Harry. These questions are more theoretical and personal than text driven, so everyone should have something original and interesting to say. You can, of course, refer back to the film. Write a couple hundred words in response to one of these questions.
1. Are cops held to a higher standard of justice than civilians?
2. Does justice depend upon expediency or the rights of individuals?
3. How does race play into our understanding of justice?
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Yes cops are held to a higher standard of justice than civilians. This is not the way that things are supposed to be but i do believe that this is true. Sometimes cops take matters in there own hands and that is when bad stuff happens. Cops are there only to support and uphold the laws not to take the laws into there own hands and enforce them how and when they see fit. as civilians we cannot do this we cannot decide when we are breaking a law or not there is a fine line for us and if you do something then it is either legal or illegal. Cops i feel have a lot more wiggle room than we do they can decide what is wrong and right from them.
ReplyDeleteJustice should always depend on the rights of individuals. But in our society not everything is always fair and lots of times justice ends up depending on expediency.
I think that sometimes we see cops held up to a higher standard of justice however sometimes that is not true. In some instances we see cops held up and see their good deeds shown to the civilians as an example of the way to act correctly it comes off to me that cops are sometimes used as role models. However sometimes we see in movies and T.V. that cops are given the easy way around. For instance in LA Confidential Ed Exley admits to shooting Bud White and the police make him into a hero just like they did with Dudley. So i think that in the media such as movies cops are sometimes held to a higher standard however also sometimes they are not held accountable for their actions and it seems to me that lower level cops are used by the upper level officers to be made examples out of for good or for bad.
ReplyDeleteI believe that in some cases cops are held to a higher standard of justice than civilians. I don’t know an exact example of a civilian having a higher standard of justice than a cop. I do believe that it is possible for a civilian can help the cops in some way.
ReplyDeleteI know that in reality justice does not always depend on the rights of individuals. Law enforcement tries to cut corners around an individual’s rights in order to obtain the evidence that is needed. I think that justice should depend on the rights of individuals not expediency because then it is not completely “fair” or “moral.” I do understand that cops dealing with high-profile cases the cops will do as much as they can to get the evidence they need. I do not necessarily agree with that method because they are cutting corners and not necessarily going about the matter in the right way.
I think race plays a major role in justice. Like the detective said, if they have a hunch on a bunch of Negroes committing a crime, no one is going to ask questions. I do believe that is some what true today. I believe that because if the description of a black male who robbed the store fits the suspect, he is most likely going to be convicted.
I'm going to address the second question if justice is based on the rights of individuals or expediency. I think think expediency gets in the way of justice, more so than we would like to think. The Nite Owl case is just one example of the police closing a case based on an easy explanation and convenience.
ReplyDeletePolitical favor is also an enormous factor. If there is one thing that LA Confidential showed, it was that politics are everything. The amount of blackmail, betrayal, and secrecy in the movie goes to show that one's image is crucial, and that people are willing to do pretty much anything to get ahead. Even if it means compromising true justice. I think expediency for most people is the highest priority.
I'm with you, Emily: the world of LA Confidential is all about appearance--heck, it's tinseltown! Not a coincidence, obviously. We want order, and the film could be seen as saying we will put up with a lot of corner cutting, as Nicole wrote, to get it. We may even put up with cops like Harry Callahan.
ReplyDeleteDavid and Andrew: punctuation and proper mechanics still count here. Let your thoughts be supported by well written English. And Exley admitted to shooting Dudley, not Bud White.
I'm answering the 2nd question. I think that in the law enforcement system, justice does depend a lot on expediency. Sometimes, for expediency, individuals’ rights are ignored. I do not believe that this is just. If there are rules put into place to protect peoples rights, they should be followed, otherwise they are meaningless, and people don’t have their rights. When suspects or witnesses are tortured, their rights are being violated in the interest of expediency. In many cases, they have done little to deserve this. The rights ignored outweigh the law broken. However, if a policeman breaks into a house of a random person and finds 20 murdered people inside, the law broken outweigh the rights violated. Peoples’ rights are like rules in a game. If a citizen is playing against the police, they know the rules; they may shoot someone who enters their home, they may have free speech, they may have five children. These are their rights. The police know the rules that the citizen may not rob a bank, or bomb a building, or eat a neighbor’s dog. These are laws. If the citizen breaks a law, they are supposed to have justice. If a policeman violates a citizen’s rights, they are supposed to have justice. Whether it is just when a citizen is arrested, I believe, depends on which is violated more in the process, rights or laws.
ReplyDeleteI chose the first question to address because I believe that the standards held for cops (compared to citizens)can go both ways. I want to say yes, cops are more responsible to than us when it comes to upholding justice because they know exactly what happens to unjust citizens. Most of a cop's job is to put the unjust people away. They also know the laws like the back of their hand. They know exactly what's right and what's wrong better then we ever could.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand cops can let their power go to their heads. Hopefully the movies exaggerate the power man and trigger happy cop. We wouldn't the men and women protecting us to be on a "Shoot now and ask questions later" routine. What if we were the innocence person staring down the barrel of their gun? I am sure cops some cops take shortcuts in the law everyday.
I chose the second question to answer. Does justice depend of expediency or the rights of individuals? I think based on the shows we have seen that it depends on the situation that the law enforcement people are in. For example, when Bud White ran into the interrogation room and shoved the gun into the suspect’s mouth to get answers. I don’t think he was putting himself first exactly, because he was trying to save the rape victim, but he violated the rights of the suspect by threatening to kill him to get answers. Another example is when Bud White went to save the rape victim. He shot and killed the man, and then made it look like he was using self-defense. I think he thought that killing that man was a way of erasing the fact that his father beat his mother. By doing that he put his own self interests first and didn’t think about the fact that the man has rights too.
ReplyDeleteI think that expediency can get in the way of justice for a lot of different reasons, politically and just because the law enforcement thinks they are doing the right thing like Bud White
I am going to address the first question: Are cops held to a higher standard of justice than civilians? I definitely think that cops are held to a higher standard of justice compared to civilians. The purpose of law enforcement is exactly what the name says, enforce the law. This can imply carrying out justice. Law enforcement officials are used because the world would dangerous without them. There must be some type of enforcement to maintain peace, order, and justice. Civilians, of course, should act and behave justly, but this does not always happen. Cops are used to keep civilians in check and therefore they must be held to a higher standard of justice because they have to fix unjust acts of civilians. I do believe that it is important for civilians to strive to act justly, but it is impossible for everyone to act justly. Since it is inevitable that someone will act unjustly, society needs a force to fix that injustice.
ReplyDeleteAlong the same lines, cops are expected to act justly when dealing with crime. Society has developed trust in the law enforcement to act justly; it has become an expectation. Since they have more power over civilians, they must act justly when punishing the civilians. Overall I believe that cops sometimes deal with impossible situations, yet society expects cops to act justly under any circumstances.
Yes and no. Police officers are not held to a higher standard, although they should be. Some police officers believe they are above the law. Cops can get away with more than the average civilian can (ex. brutality, assault, murder, etc.) Justice is in the eye of the beholder, but the general idea of "justice" depends largely on expediency, where it should depend on the rights of individuals. The expediency is such a large factor in one's perception of justice once you begin to include the race factors (numbers of people of color incarcerated, convicted, etc.). Race has a HUGE influence on justice.
ReplyDeleteI chose to answer the third one, and I am the first one to do so. I would say that race plays a huge role in our justice system and it has since slavery. The question is why race is such a big deal. While I like to think that America has gotten better since the days of segregation, black men and women are still targeted by the cops. This does not mean that the cops hate black people, though some of them do, it is rather that they are paranoid because of years of programming and propaganda. As we grow up and watch the local new it seems that every day some black man had held up a convenient store or there had been some gang violence. So as you grow up you subconsciously learn to acknowledge the idea that black people are related to crime. While this can be true in poor neighborhoods due to desperation and the need for some food on their plate, obviously not every person of color is carrying a Glock in their pocket looking to gun someone down. But the police are programmed, as many of us are, that black people are more prone to commit crimes. It is one of the saddest things in America, with people of color getting locked away for no reason, or getting shot because a cop was paranoid. It is sad but it is a fact that people with color have to live with every day.
ReplyDeleteI am going to address the first question. I do believe that cops are held to a higher standard of justice than civilians are. I think this is largely because cops are there to enforce the law and arrest the civilians that do not follow the law. If cops were not held to a higher standard of justice than civilians were the world would get out of hand. However, I believe that cops can get around the laws easily in order to get the evidence they need. Such as, in LA Confidential when the cops tortured the guys into saying what the cops wanted to hear or hoe Exely got away with shooting innocent people. Therefore, I think that cops are held to a higher standard of justice than civilians are but sometimes they over use their power and get away with it to easily.
ReplyDeleteI think yes, cops are held to a higher standard of justice. Their purpose is to carry out and enforce the law, which entails finding those who have committed unjust crimes. Cops are here to enforce the good and safety in a society. They are also a role model for civilians; someone to fallow in order to find justice. Their standard of justice has to be higher to teach and lead those who don’t know, understand or fallow the law. The problem is when the police officers act outside of the boundaries of the law, when they are not the role model they are paid to be. What happens when the person you look up to, fallow, and learn from, is just as bad as the criminals they catch?
ReplyDeleteI agree with everyone, cops do have a higher standard of justice than civilians. If civilians were equal with cops then there would not be a source of law enforcement in society. I feel like the media has influenced my opinion on this because you rarely see tv shows or movies were the civilian has higher authority than a cop. I think that its necessary that cops have a higher standard of justice because that is what their job description is. Cops have the job to enforce the law and to protect civilians. Cops and any other job in law enforcement sometimes abuse their authority to manipulate situations. This use of authority is not ethical but is always overlooked because their jobs are in law enforcement. I am aware that there are situations when abusing power to get evidence is necessary. Like In the scene were Bud white let the DA dangle out of a window to get him to confess, Bud White used his authority to manipulate the situation. I think that cops shouldn’t “cut corners” but sometimes it’s the only way out of a situation. I believe that race does play a huge part in law enforcement. Even though people like to think racism has disappeared, it has not. Just like in the movie the detective was talking about how by having an assumption about a group of blacks is enough to arrest, convict them for a crime and then stop the investigation. Just because they fit the description does not mean they committed the crime.
ReplyDeletePolice officers are absolutely held to a higher standard of justice than civilians, and for good reason. Sure, they’re only human (“They’re people just like you and me!”), but their job has a purpose. Not only are they supposed to “serve and protect”, they are also supposed to serve as role models for the general public. LA Confidential is all about a period of time where everyone was screaming for reforming the police departments. Why was reform necessary? Because police officers are supposed to be role models. It should even go in the job description. Think of the image that would be cast if law enforcement officials – the people whose job it is to serve and protect you – were caught in a scandal of any sort. It doesn’t matter how big or small the scandal is – by the time it makes the newspapers (or in this day and age, the internet), the damage has been done. Police officers may be, in reality, people just like you and me. That’s not, however, what the general public wants to see. They want to see the police force as something that’s almost superhuman. The one thing the police force can’t do is let down the people that they are supposed to serve and protect. By reminding the people that they, too, are human, they are doing just that.
ReplyDeleteI think justice does rely upon expediency. Our justice system doesn’t seem to be created around the rights of individuals. The system seems to be created to benefit and convenience the people in power. I feel that justice should depend on the rights of individuals but that is not convenient so that is not the way it is done. It seems unfair that the people in power choose justice in a way to benefit them, but our society isn’t fair. For example when the men who where accused of the night owl murders, in LA confidential, the cops relied on expediency to get answers out of the three men. The men were tortured and beaten. This was convenient to the police officers, but not at all moral or fair. The officers just do the things they do to help themselves. A family friend spent two days driving around with the Atlanta police. He told me about one experience in which a police officer was on the phone with the woman the police force were trying to arrest. The woman was completely freaking out and the police officer flat out lied to her over the phone saying, “don’t worry ma’am we are not going to arrest.” In this case justice depends upon expediency because that was not the moral thing to do but it benefited the officer in many ways, and they were able to arrest the woman.
ReplyDeleteQuestion 2: Expediency sometimes better serves the public as a whole rather than rights of individuals. The corrupt police force in LA Confidential held the town down to some level of order whereas the rights of an individual might lead to no solution. Expediency will lead to overall justice but on the backs of people who did not get to see that justice. Satisfying the rights of the individuals will let you go to bed easily at night knowing that you didn't step on anyone's toes, but perhaps you may miss the big picture.
ReplyDeleteThat being said,I view expediency as sometimes appropriate given the situation and in no way am i saying it's the boy scout way. I believe that if everybody respected the rights of every individual, this wouldn't be an issue in the first place. But that's one big "if".
I don't think that cops are necessarily held to a higher standard of justice. I think they are more expected to do the right thing, or successfully protect civilians, which in some cases, is neither just nor fair. For example, when Bud pinned the man to the wall in order to find out where the woman he kidnapped was, he was not being just, but I would say that to find the woman as quickly as possible, and in the circumstances he did the right thing, or his duty as a policeman. I think cops can get away with deviating from their standard of justice, whereas civilians cannot. In LA Confidential, the cops could bend the law and not be punished for it, whether or not they were doing the right thing. I think it is easier for police to bend the law, because they have the full force of the law on their side. As long as the result turns out well, I think the methods cops use to get there can be overlooked.
ReplyDeleteI think expediency plays a major role in the justice system and often conflicts the rights of individuals. I think there are often conflicts of interest as we saw in LA Confidential. As many people have mentioned, when Bud White held a gun in one of the suspects mouths to get answers out of him, he ignored the rights of that individual while trying to save a rape victim. Sometimes, if expediency is the main concern, one must ignore the rights of individuals if they are slowing down your process. In other words, you must be flexible about the questions that Dudley asked in the beginning of the movie. I think it's very case-dependent. When the case involves someone who's life is on the line and has only a certain amount of time, expediency may be seen as the most important factor. In many of the cases definitely depends on expediency, but there are unrealistic factors in many movies that may not necessarily depict the law correctly.
ReplyDeleteQuestion 2: I believe that justice is determined by the situation, the cops and the other people involved in a case to discover whether justice depends on expediency or the rights of individuals. The Nite Owl case is a good example of this. At first, it appeared that justice was determined based on expediency. The men accused of being involved had criminal records; so many cops were quick to jump to the conclusion that they had committed the crime. It seemed that the police officers decided that torturing and forcing answers out of the men was the most convenient and quickest way for them to close the case, despite the fact that it was neither moral nor appropriate. But later we see that Officer White and Detective Lt. Exley feel wrong about the outcome of the case, and endanger themselves for the rights of other individuals. They do this in order to do what is they believe is right even though it ends up almost destroying them. I believe that justice depends on what is most important to the cop. Whether they care more about expediency and protecting their job or the rights of individuals and protecting innocent people determines how justice will be served.
ReplyDeleteI feel that people of color typically have negative feelings towards police and the justice system. However, many white people automatically link someone of color to a crime that has been committed because of the media and how they portray certain races. Race plays a big role in peoples understanding of justice when someone of color is automatically looked at as a suspect. In L.A. Confidential the cops did not even think twice at the time that a group of white men could have killed all those people, but assumed it had to be the black men. I believe the way black people especially black men have been seen as dangerous, stupid, and all around criminals has definitely made an impact in society. These negative and many times false perceptions of black men have made them targets for the police especially white cops. And the fact that so many black men go to jail and are many times targeted by the police has created a image to people of color that the police are out to get them. The past experience of the police and people of color has been one of injustice and cruelty and even though it has been years and we have made some progress the memory of how police treated minorities will never be forgotten. Those awful experiences are always in the back of a blacks persons mind when they see a police car behind them. The prejudices that whites and minorities have towards each other regrading the justice system create like Christian said a sense of paranoia from both groups. Neither group fully trusts the other and this results in people of color many times being targeted and then feeling like every cop is corrupt and out to get you.
ReplyDeleteI think Cops are held to a higher standard by the public, but maybe not by the cops themselves. I think it would feel worse to me if a cop broke into my house, opposed to a random burglar. I don't really know how the inner workings of a police force work, as I am not a police officer. But I do know in movies cops are depicted as people who value other cops over the law. I think the best example of this is how cops will never "snitch" on each other in movies/TV shows. In this way cops are held to a much lower standard than normal citizens. I think it would be interesting to hear from a real police officer that had been in the situation of being asked to "snitch" on one of his fellow officers. I think citizens are held to higher standard, which should really be the only standard. If you're an average person, you can't walk around breaking an law you feel like because it could lead to a good outcome. Cops apparently can, but who knows if that's realistic?
ReplyDelete